More Delmon-Hating From Gardy
Well, Gardy’s kicked it up a notch in his Delmon-hating game. According to Sinker, Gardy wants a starting outfield in 2009 of Gomez, Span, and Cuddyer. That leaves Delmon on the outs, obviously.
Aside from the obvious problem of actively dangling him on the trade market, having the manager basically come out and say that he’s useless to us cannot help his trade value. And having him in a DH platoon with Kubel is terrible for many reasons — the top two of which are that they both need 500+ AB. #3 is that Delmon is 23 years old, and it seems a little early to relegate him to a bench role given his obvious talents.
“Those three guys need to play every day. Delmon is in the mix. He’s a hell of a player, a hell of a talent. But to me, those three guys should be your outfield and then you go from there.”What a twit. How can you say, with a straight face, that you think Delmon is a hell of a player, and immediately follow it up by saying he has absolutely no chance to play? Let me fix that for you:
“Delmon is in the mix. He’s a hell of a player, a hell of a talent. But to me, he should be in your outfield, and then you go from there.”There. Isn’t that better?
Furthermore, I simply don’t understand Gardy’s apparent refusal to accept depth in the outfield. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: it’s a damn good thing we had four good outfielders last year, given that they kept getting injured (especially the oldest and least talented of the group, a certain Michael Cuddyer). If we decide not to learn from our immediate history, we could run into the exact same problem and see a bunch of Pridie and Kubel (and Punto?) stumbling around in the outfield, and I don’t think anybody wants to see that.
Also, I just saw word from LEN3 that Delmon’s been hitting the weight room since the season ended, and that he’s lost weight. It seems to me that nobody expected Delmon to lose any weight — all the jokes have been about the size of brother Dmitri. But this leaves open the possibility that Delmon will get both faster and stronger, in addition to more experienced and skilled at the plate. How come everyone’s willing to wait for Mauer to develop into his power, but are willing to give up on Delmon’s, despite the fact that Delmon already has more power, has the build of a big time power hitter, and is three years his junior?
Damn it, you Twins. Drop this talk about Blake and his elderly, overpriced ass. We’re not running the Social Security program, we’re running a baseball team. We don’t need to sign a 35 year old mediocre player to a multi-year deal. We also don’t need to sign the biggest free agent contract in franchise history for a second consecutive year at the same position, this time targeting a guy who is even older. If you feel like you have too many outfielders, then move Cuddyer to third base to lessen the logjam. And then be happy when Gomez tweaks his groin prancing around in center like a deer, or Span hurts his shoulder diving over the fence after a ball, or Delmon strains his oblique chasing after a slider six feet off the plate; “happy” because we have another real outfielder to use, rather than having traded one of them away for pennies on the dollar just so Gardy doesn’t have to make tough decisions like “which one of these good players should play today?” and can instead make tough decisions like “which one of these bad players do I have to start today?”
(Oh, and in other interesting news, Adam Dunn has apparently also been hitting the weight room, and has lost 15 pounds. He’s also projected to make less than $10M per year on the free agent market, due to the economy. He also wasn’t offered arbitration, so there are no draft picks involved. I know I want Kubel to play, but a .380 OBP and 40 HR from the DH spot, with the “ability” to fill in occasionally at LF and 1B are calling out to me. Also, Mauer-Morneau-Dunn is a pretty fearsome 2-3-4 or 3-4-5 in any lineup. Also, Dunn hasn’t been linked to the Twins in any rumor, and left handed hitters aren’t exactly our need, and we already have a left handed LF/DH. But I don’t see why we shouldn’t consider Dunn if the price is right.)
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Everyone’s getting too worked up about this. The blogs have been going crazy with people calling Gardy all sorts of names. I realize this is to be expected on a “Fire Gardy” site, but goodness!
I don’t see why using Delmon Young as a DH is such a bad thing, especially if Kubel gets moved or used as a fill-in. I agree with Gardy about one thing- I would like to see Gomez, Span, and Cuddy in the outfield, since they are the best defensive combination. Everyone has complained about DY’s fielding anyway, so some DH duty might be the best thing for him. The Twins could even move Kubel, who is in the upside of his value, for a starting shortstop. They have outfield depth in the minors, in case of injury.
I guess my point is that this lone statement, which wasn’t meant to stir up anything or cause controversy, at a farm trade show in Fargo doesn’t spell doom for the rest of the 2009 season. Take a deep breath and relax!
I would generally agree with the “relax” sentiment, but I think it’s pretty important that Gardy doesn’t dig himself into a hole with his players — how would you like it if you were Delmon and your boss went out of his way to repeatedly say he thinks you don’t deserve a job?
Also, I think there’s no question that Delmon has a higher ceiling than Cuddyer (whose ceiling was realized in 2006, and he will probably never again reach those “heights”). Therefore, Delmon needs playing time to build skills and experience on top of his talent.
And by the way, despite the incendiary name of the site, I have never advocated the actual “firing” of Gardy (in fact I wholeheartedly congratulated him on his contract extension). Rather, I take it upon myself to point out the idiotic things he (constantly) does in the hopes that he will stop and improve.
Oh. One more thing. Your use of the word “especially.” This is the last place in the world where talking about Jason Kubel like that will fly. We like him around here. In the official opinion of FireGardy.com, there are only two things that should take any at bats away from Jason Kubel at DH: 1) Signing Adam Dunn. 2) Cloning Justin Morneau.
(Click on the “Shop Fire Gardy” link on the right of the page to purchase your very own “Free Jason Kubel” t-shirt!)
Well, Gardy is an idiot to make these comments esp. in a place (livestock show) that he really did not have to make them. Smith is doubly the idiot to sit around and not fine him and let him get away with it (not to mention the undeserved extension). That said, back to baseball:
I like Dunn. A lot. But Morneau and Dunn back to back will get neutralized by the better LOOGIES out there. I can see Dunn at the 6 spot with DY at the 5th. To get Dunn, it means that Kubel has to go any way you slice it. The Cubs might be a fit, but I am not sure that anything will or can happen before the big free agent picture settles (and by then Dunn will be gone)
Dunn won’t bat 6th, no matter where he goes — especially not in a lineup like the Twins’.
And while having Morneau and Dunn back to back initially sounds frightening, bear in mind that Dunn’s career OPS against lefties is .833; compare that to Morneau’s .739, and I wouldn’t worry about Dunn that much. In fact, given that Morneau’s OPS against righties is just .899, Dunn against lefties is closer to Morneau against righties than he is to Morneau against lefties.
All in all, I think talent is more important than LRLRLRLRLRLRL. So if we had Dunn, I wouldn’t worry about that. (Not that we have a chance. Just saying.)
Oh. And the Cubs really have no reason to want Kubel. They have a good bad / no glove left fielder in Soriano, and they can’t use a DH. I seriously doubt they’re a viable trade candidate for Kubel.
Not that I’m seriously entertaining trade options for Kubel.
I’ve heard the “Free Jason Kubel” argument, and he did a good/capable job last season in the DH spot, but is he irreplaceable? Heck no! And if the Twins want a quality shortstop with some power and could snag one by moving Kubel, I would not question that move. Kubel has more value at this point than Cuddy and could net more of a haul in a trade, if BS doesn’t want to trade his young outfielders. Which makes sense to me.
No T-shirt for me- I have nothing against Kubel, and I’m sure he’s a nice guy, but if anyone on the team could use a personality injection, it would be him. And I realize that you aren’t really against Gardy- I saw the celebration of Gardy Day! Just imagine if you ran a Fire Ozzie site- you would be in a permanent state of dyspepsia. :)
I don’t know if I agree that Kubel has more trade value than Cuddyer — Cuddyer’s arm will play at any corner outfield spot, AL or NL, and his bat is at least adequate. Kubel’s bat may or may not be better (I think it is, but he hasn’t been given the legitimate chance to prove it, like Cuddyer was in 2006), but he’s an awkward outfielder at best. That limits him to AL teams who don’t have a DH … which is pretty much just us.
And no, he’s not irreplaceable. Only Mauer is irreplaceable. Morneau is great, but it shouldn’t be THAT hard to find a slugging 1B, given that almost every team has one. Hunter seemed irreplaceable, but Gomez slid right in and made us forget. If we came up with a real slugger who could hit 40 HR and draw a slew of walks, then we wouldn’t need Kubel any more. But until we have such a guy, Kubel should be in the lineup, not on the bench.
By the way, I live in Chicago, and Ozzie’s been growing on me. He makes many of the same boneheaded moves as Gardy, but his antics are at least thoroughly entertaining.
I’d like to see Young play another year with the Twins. If he is indeed dedicating himself to getting in better shape and preparing the way a professional baseball player should, then I’m all for allowing this youngster continue in his development. Until any player has 1000 plate appearances, I think you have to exercise a little patience.
And on that note, this would probably be the year to give Kubel more than 500 ABs…
Spot on with the 1000 PA talk. That’s when Cuddyer turned his corner.
Kubel hit 1000 PA during last season — which was, incidentally, also the season in which he established himself as the third best hitter on the team, behind Mauer and Morneau (at least in the eyes of stats guys and national analysts, not Gardy and other Twins fans). So yes, absolutely, Kubel needs ABs. I don’t understand why you’d keep your third best hitter out of the game.
But Delmon also hit 1000 PA last season, and he has not established himself as anything. Yet. I think he needs more time to grow, he’s still young. (Delmon actually has more career PA than Kubel, and fewer home runs.)
Thank you Thank you Thank you, I can’t believe the Twins are even considering moving Delmon to keep the overpaid and overvalued glue guy Michael Cuddyer. Either trade Cuddy or keep them both just in case Cuddyer hurts himself doing magic tricks in the dugout and misses most of the year.
Gardy needs to keep his mouth shut and play talent not hussle.
Cuddyer’s not very likely to hurt himself doing magic tricks. The foul line is pretty easy to trip over, though. Also his helmet.
Trading Cuddyer should be higher on the to-do list than trading Delmon. But it should be lower on the list than “moving Cuddyer to third,” as long as Cuddy’s willing to do it. He’s capable of playing there and is a team player; I don’t see why it should be a problem.
Seriously, of the two of them, which do you expect to see in a Twins uniform in five years? Which would you RATHER see in a Twins uniform in five years?
Delmon and Delmon.
Cuddyer will be 35…
If they’re going to trade an outfielder/DH, it should be in this order:
As mentioned earlier, signing Dunn is the only way Kubel shouldn’t be an everyday DH.
Assuming the roster stays the same, the correct starting outfield is Cuddyer, Span, & Young. Kubel as the permanent DH and Gomez can perfect his handshakes on the bench until they trade Juan Pierre Jr.
A little down on Gomez, are we? I’m not … but how’s this for a possibility nobody seems to be considering?
Carlos Gomez should start the season in Rochester.
It solves the “we have too many good players” “problem” AND gives Gomez some extra time to develop into an actual hitter. I love the speed, the exuberance, the prancing around like a deer, the handshakes, and the interviews. Oh, how I love the Gomez interviews. But missing the cutoff man and overthrowing the plate by 10 feet EVERY TIME isn’t acceptable. Also, batting .250 isn’t great.
So Gomez should go spend some time with the Cliburns, suck for a while, then we need to find a Latino Torii Hunter to impart the ultimate secret of success to him: Play Angry. It worked like a charm for Denard. (I assume the real Torii Hunter would not impart this wisdom directly to a guy named Carlos. Or Gomez. Or both. Prove me wrong, Torii.)
And then when someone inevitably gets hurt, Gomez comes up, the outfield defense improves, and there’s the outside shot that Gomez at the plate turns into a right handed Span.
And then we’d have a REAL problem with having too many good players!
And Kubel would not fetch a respectable starting SS in a trade. I’ve been a huge Kubel supporter for years (30 HR 30 2B per year player), but with the way Gardy has used him – he currently has minimal trade value.
Honestly, the Twins got a wild card pitching prospect (Guerra) and a few buckets of baseballs for Johan Santana. If that’s all they got for Santana, why would they get something better for Kubel? Even Kubel’s relatively cheap arbitration years wouldn’t help much.
Well, I don’t think the Santana trade was THAT bad. We also got the best defensive center fielder in baseball, who happens to be 22 years old and has plenty of development left in him. Also a couple of spare parts for the pitching staff. Also we got out from under having to worry about the What-will-happen-with-Santana drama during the season — did you see how the Indians immediately got better after they unloaded Sabathia and escaped from those questions? I’d rather have gotten more, but it’s not like we got robbed. Would you rather have paid him for 2008 and then got the draft picks? Would you rather have traded him at midseason for a minor league outfielder and a PTBNL?
But the point doesn’t change. We’re not going to get that much for Kubel. He’s not an intriguing young prospect any more, and he’s not an established veteran. Those are the two things people will pay for. That’s why Cuddyer draws more interest — established veteran. That’s why Span draws more interest — intriguing prospect. Kubel draws no interest because he hasn’t done anything and he’s been around long enough that it seems like he should have. (But Gardy hasn’t given him the chance to.)
“Carlos Gomez should start the season in Rochester.”
Can you honestly see them doing that? That would be the best option, but Gardy has some strange fetish with players that run fast & can’t hit. I’ll take offensive production over the 10 extra plays per year Gomez would make in CF over Span.
I can’t project Gomez into anything other than Juan Pierre at the plate. Obviously he’s better defensively, but like you said, if he can’t make his throws – who cares?
“Well, I don’t think the Santana trade was THAT bad. We also got the best defensive center fielder in baseball, who happens to be 22 years old and has plenty of development left in him. Also a couple of spare parts for the pitching staff. Also we got out from under having to worry about the What-will-happen-with-Santana drama during the season — did you see how the Indians immediately got better after they unloaded Sabathia and escaped from those questions? I’d rather have gotten more, but it’s not like we got robbed. Would you rather have paid him for 2008 and then got the draft picks? Would you rather have traded him at midseason for a minor league outfielder and a PTBNL?”
Maybe I wasn’t clear enough with my point. I’m not questioning the result of the Santana trade. All I’m saying is if that’s all Minnesota got for one of the game’s best pitchers, why on earth would anybody (Erica) think we could get a SS of value for Kubel?
Yes, I can see them doing that, and I’ll tell you why:
There’s the possibility that it could damage him mentally and destroy his confidence. Since he’s young and talented, Gardy would absolutely LOVE to do that.
It’s not just the 10 extra plays Gomez makes over Span in CF. It’s also the 30 extra plays Span makes over Cuddyer, or the 50 extra plays Span makes over Delmon. Gomez makes the outfield defense A LOT better, and for a team of strike throwing fly ball pitchers who don’t miss bats, that’s extremely important.
Juan Pierre’s a really low ceiling. Dare I point out that when Torii Hunter was 22 years old, he was a similar player with similar stats? It’s also possible that Gomez is the next Hunter, except with the speed of a mongoose.
Oh, we’re definitely not getting a serviceable shortstop for Kubel.
We’re not getting anyone from anybody unless we give up Slowey and/or Span. All the rumors involving the Twins include the following text:
“[Insert team name here] is demanding Kevin Slowey and Denard Span in return.”
It’s tough to get excited over a comparision to a career 105 OPS+ hitter. As the roster stands there is no way I’d want his bat in the lineup again. There is no doubt that Gomez significantly upgrades the outfield defense as a whole, but I’d much rather go with superior offensive production until he puts up some solid numbers in AAA (which probably won’t happen since he’ll be the opening day CF and #9 hitter).
There are a few places on the field where you’re willing to sacrifice offense for defense — typically, up the middle.
Hunter’s 105 OPS+ isn’t bad for a center fielder, and bear in mind that if we use him as a ceiling, then there’s also a 122 and 124 in there. Those are superstar numbers from a CF.
I’m not opposed in any way to improving the offense (in fact, that’s a necessary and important goal), but CF, SS and C are the positions where it’s at least acceptable to give up a little at the plate for a lot in the field. We’re lucky enough to not have to make that sacrifice at C because of Mauer, but it’s not realistic to expect that at every up-the-middle position.
That said, I still think giving him some shelf-time at AAA for seasoning would be a good thing.
And what do you mean “as the roster stands?” It’s not like other offensive underachievers are actually good in the field. I’d rather have Gomez than Buscher, Harris, Punto, Tolbert, Pridie, et cetera. At least he can field his position; those guys are a liability at the plate AND in the field.
I think all this crap about the problem in the outfield is a ruse to keep us from talking about the complete disaster that is the left side of the infield.
“I think all this crap about the problem in the outfield is a ruse to keep us from talking about the complete disaster that is the left side of the infield.”
Agreed.
“As the roster stands” was referring to Span/Cuddyer/Young/Gomez/Kubel as the OF options.
Unfortunately the left side of the infield is a black hole offensively and defensively. The Twins already more or less sacrifice two spots in the order on 3B and SS. Why make it more painful than it has to be by sacrificing a 3rd?
I understand the need for defense, though sometimes I feel people give it too much emphasis. If he can spend some time at AAA and turn himself into even an average hitter, great (assuming he also learns how to hit the cut off). As far as 2009 is concerned, I think you have to go with offensive production. Maybe I’ll change my mind if they can shore up 3B/SS – then having Gomez in the lineup isn’t such a liability.
I think even solving 3B means we don’t have to go as offensive-minded in the OF. (Again, it’s acceptable to lose some SS offense as long as the SS defense is good.)
And by “solving” 3B I mean having an adequate defender (not Buscher or Harris) who’s also at least adequate offensively (not Buscher or Harris). It seems to me that the real options are Casey Blake and Michael Cuddyer. And I really don’t like the idea of signing Blake.
Moving Cuddyer to third solves the 3B problem, which means it’s okay to lose some offense in favor of defense in CF. AND it means we have exactly the right number of outfielders. AND there’s a backup plan in case someone gets injured (ie, everyone’s still on the roster).
Is there something I’m missing?
Cuddyer to third solves a lot of problems. If Young, Gomez or Span get hurt or need a day off, Cuddyer gets tossed into right field again. In comes Buscher, Harris or Punto. They’ll keep the spot warm until you’re back…man, that’s too smart.