Ty Wigginton
As everyone knows, the Astros non-tendered third baseman Ty WIgginton at Friday’s deadline. LEN3 wrote a piece about it over the weekend. Despite his name being similar to Ty Willingham, I think the Twins should go after him. He has the ability to hit for power, and play a competent third base. Last year at age 30, he had an OPS+ of 128, that is very good. His hitting line was .285/.350/.526, also excellent. Apparently the Twins have been a fan of Wigginton since his days in Tampa, but have never been able to swing a deal to get him. In 2008 he played 82 of the 111 games he played at third, with the rest coming in the OF. For his career he has played in 747 games, 527 of them coming at third. His career fielding percentage (not the greatest stat, I know, but bear with me) at third is .956, while not great it won’t be a downgrade from any of our other 3B options.
To summarize, he is a right handed, third baseman, with power. What’s not to like? Well, probably the price tag. Odds are he will get Casey Blake type money (how pathetic is that statement out of context?), something the Twins have shown they are not willing to do. If we can somehow convince Wigginton to come to Minnesota on a 2 year, 14-15 mil deal, I’d say we do it. The only thing we lose is money, which sucks, but we don’t have to give up draft picks or prospects, which are more valuable to the Twins than money. As of right now, I’d say he is our best outside option at third. The cost for Beltre, Atkins, etc. will be way too high. While Buscher and Harris would make for a fine platoon, I can see Gardy botching the platoon and going with the “hot hand” which you aren’t supposed to do in a true platoon. Brian Buscher should not be allowed to hit against lefties, its as simple as that. I have a feeling lots of teams are interested in Wigginton, which is why the Twins should be going after him early and often. Thoughts?
Update: Word is Furcal has signed with the Braves. So what do they do with the fine, young shortstop they already have? Move one of Furcal/Escobar to second? Or trade Escobar to the Twins for pennies on the dollar? I would take him in a trade for pitcher. A pitcher not named Slowey. With the braves losing Smoltz, and losing out on the Peavy sweepstakes, they might need an established Major League starter, would anyone be opposed to throwing them one of Blackburn/Perkins for Yunel Escobar? I know Gardy has named Punto our SS, but this team should take any left side infield upgrade it can get. For the record I have heard no rumors saying that a)the Brave are looking to move Escobar, or b) the Twins have asked about him. Its all speculation, which is all we can do during hot stove season.
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I agree completely that the Twins should go after Wigginton with guns blazing. And I’m fully willing to offer “Casey Blake money” to get him. And unlike the Blake situation, I don’t see the Twins as being totally unwilling to go to three years on a deal, since he’s only 30.
The only thing to worry about there is that his OPS+ of 128 last season was BY FAR his career high. He’s usually around 100. Still a significant upgrade from our normal 3B production, but not great.
I don’t see the Braves dealing Escobar for anything less than Peavy, and if they can’t get him, Blackburn/Perkins is a pretty steep drop as a consolation prize. If we can get him for a pitcher other than Slowey/Liriano/Baker, then I’d do it. Otherwise, forget about it.
I also don’t think Escobar is a real option. I thought the braves had a solid middle infield combo of Escobar and Kelly Johnson, not sure why they would throw money at Furcal. Unless they plan on using one of Escobar or Johnson at third, but that is where Chipper Jones is. Unless they plan on moving the aging Jones to first or the outfield. Escobar did play some third in 2007 when he was a utility guy, so who knows.
I hope we get some confirmed reports about Smith talking to Wigginton’s agent. Soon
They have Casey Kotchman at first. It now seems like they have a problem in their infield similar to the one we have in our outfield.
Maybe they just did this to start a conversation with the Twins, in preparation of unloading Francoeur on the Royals (in Dayton Moore’s quest to build the worst-OBP team of all time while preaching the benefits of OBP), then replacing him with Delmon Young.
Frankly, I hope that doesn’t happen. And it’s pretty unlikely that that was the plan. But using Kelly Johnson or Yunel Escobar as a utility infielder doesn’t make any sense at all.
I have no problem with Wigginton. The Twins have the money, Wiggy’s got the talent= go for it. Would you then look to trade Harris and Buscher, or would they ride the bench?
I don’t think the Twins should be in a rush to trade any of their starters, unless they are planning to sign Randy Johnson (or another proven veteran). The Twins were darn lucky to have such a productive rotation- when Livan left and Boof went to the pen- last year after trading/losing half the staff. I don’t think you can count on Humber or Delaney or whoever to fill an open spot as easily.
Who’s would you prefer to trade, Perkins or Blackburn? Who do you think teams would see as more valuable? Or are they interchangeable? I prefer Blackburn, but it may be because of his great performance in game 163.
I think Blackburn has the higher trade value, but both would be better moving to the NL. I also think we don’t really need to make a trade if we can sign Wigginton. Although, as you mentioned his nickname will be Wiggy, and I think that will get annoying. Anytime he gets a hit “Get Wiggy with it” or some equally terrible variation will flash on the jumbotron. Ugh. But he is a good player and as long as we don’t overextend ourselves on the years, I say pull the trigger, Billy.
I oppose signing a “proven veteran” even if it is Randy Johnson. He was decent last year, but pitched in the NL west. Not exactly a division full of imposing lineups. I would also assume he prefers to stay in the NL. Since his last foray into the AL didn’t go so well. He hasn’t been a dominant AL pitcher in 10 years. I say we use who we have, that always seems to work for us. While signing “proven veterans” NEVER works out. Except maybe Kenny Rogers.
Yeah, I’d rather stick with our young guys and not sign any old pieces of crap who used to be good. Even if they used to be REALLY good.
I didn’t consider the horrible nickname factor. Luckily, it’s not a deal breaker for me. I’m on board with keeping the rotation intact, accepting Punto/Casilla/Tolbert up the middle, and acquiring a solid third baseman.
Wigginton would be great.. and if you are extending 2 yrs/$8M to Nick Punto (31) and 2 yrs/$14M to Casey Blake (35)… WHY the heck would you not try to land Wigginton for something similar? Buscher and Harris are both 28 and not nearly as productive in the “power” categories as Wiggy is… I think you have to go after him and offer a 3 yr deal at around $18/19M, with incentives. If they dont, you know damn well they had no intentions of upgrading at 3B, it would be a shame if they miss the boat once again on a quality pick up and I’d be starting the “Fire Bill Smith” website next! Just think if we actually knew who are starting IF was before spring training? Morneau 1B, Casilla 2B, Punto SS, Wigginton 3B… as for Buscher, I like his bat, but one of the two might have to be released, if they can’t go back to AAA. Anyways, the short of it is: SIGN HIM NOW.
The better they were in the past, the most disappointing they will be once we sign them. Randy Johnson has like 6 or something Cy Young awards, meaning he will be all kinds of terrible if we sign him. Which we shouldn’t. I think we can all agree that we will be better off sticking with a rotation of Baker/Liriano/Slowey/Blackburn/Perkins unless some insanely good trade opportunity comes along.
I like the salary projection for Wigginton, that seems fair. I would start lower for negotiation purposes, but I’m comfortable with those figures. I also agree that we don’t need Buscher/Harris/Tolbert all on the bench. I’d be in favor of keeping Buscher and Harris for pinch hitting purposes, Buscher against righties, Harris against lefties. Plus Harris can play most places arond the infield, and Buscher can help out at the corners.
That sends Tolbert back down to AAA to keep preparing to replace Punto in 2011 … but will Tolbert even be around by then? And I don’t want him taking ABs away from Hughes or Plouffe in Rochester.
That’s absolutely a reasonable contract for Wigginton, and I think if we get that deal done we have to unload at least one of Buscher/Harris/Tolbert, even for a PTBNL.
I wonder what the hell Bill Smith is waiting for?
I’ve been hearing rumblings (none of which are overly credible) of a possiblr Young for Escobar trade. I don’t like it one bit. There is too much potential in Young’s bat to give up on him already.
Yes, we shouldn’t be giving away Delmon, and even if we did, Escobar isn’t enough.
And I agree, I feel like Smith should be moving fast here. There’s nobody on the market that compares to Wigginton; he exactly fills our need. Do it.
But looked what happened last season when something became available that “fit our need” (Bradford, Hawkins, any bullpen help!) we go and sign Steady Eddie… so be prepared that we sit on our hands again on this one… Like I said, it’ll prove to me what their true intentions are with this team, and filling holes to improve is not a part of the plan…
I just thought of a potential lineup if Wigginton is indeed signed and inserted… Of course, other stubborn things need to be changed by Gardy for this so it’s obviously a long shot: Gomez to the bench, moving Mauer up and Mauer/Morneau splitting up in the order… gives you:
Span CF Mauer C Wigginton 3B Morneau 1B Cuddyer RF Kubel DH Young LF Casilla 2B Punto SS
I like to think of Wigginton as a right hand hitting Jason Kubel, their numbers are pretty similar and both could give you 20-25 HRs a season, with Morneau giving you another 25 to 30… Hopefully Cuddyer and Young are getting into the act by at least giving you 10-15 HRs, with Young giving you more, I would hope, as Cuddyer regresses… You have your speed guys at the top and bottom (how Gardy likes it) and it takes an automatic out (in Gomez) out of your lineup…
But, I doubt any of that will happen… stupid Gardy.
Gomez shouldn’t be benched, he should start the season in AAA, sitting on the bench won’t do him any good. PLaying everyday at rochester will. Other than that, I like the lineup, which makes it more frustrating because I know it won’t come to fruitition.
I like Go-Go playing every day with the Twins. Span, Go-Go and Cuddy/Young are a great defensive outfield, which helps Baker and Slowey out A LOT. Span would be just fine in center, but I like his speed in the corner- nothing drops.
Didn’t Go-Go improve near the end of the season? We all vividly remember the miserable plate appearances mid-summer, but I thought he was doing much better hitting in the nine-spot.
Much better is a bit of an overstatement. But yes, he did improve. However, I don’t think an OF of Cuddyer/Span/Young, is much of a downgrade over one that includes Gomez. Obviously it is somewhat of a step down, but I think some time in AAA is best for Gomez’s long term career.
Gomez to AAA would be the better option, but I really dont see that happening, especially since he didn’t go back down last year… no, he’ll be starting and batting 9th, you can put money on that. Let’s just hope he’s developed some plate discipline over the offseason…
I just dont understand why we are afraid of power… I really dont
There is no actual reason for it. I understand not buying power hitters on the market (Dunn, etc.) because they are expensive and overpriced, but what is this team’s problem with developing them, and then right before they hit free agency trade them for a boat load of prospects, or collect the draft picks when they leave. I just don’t get it.
The reason for it is obvious, actually. The Twins, as an organization, believe in batting average over all other statistics. Slapping a single to opposite field 30% of the time makes you a perfect hitter. They draft and acquire players who fit this mold, which is why they never develop a power hitter.
BUT when a natural power hitter falls into their laps, they actually try to change him, and to mold him into their image of the perfect slap hitter. Gardy on Delmon, from Gleeman:
“Gardenhire went on to say that Young ‘is a little more stubborn than some of the guys’ while ‘we want him to flow into our program.’ He then went into further detail about Young’s stubbornness:
‘You have to understand, Delmon is one of these kids that’s come up and has been the best player from when he was probably this little all the way up. And the two people that have been probably the biggest people in his life, his father and his brother, pretty talented, pretty knowledgeable baseball people. That’s who he listened to, and our goal was to try to break into that and get him to understand what we are about.’”
So Gardy basically just admitted that the only off-the-field problem they’re having with Delmon is that he wants to be a good player and play to his natural abilities, and they want him to be a big Nick Punto. He’s “stubborn” because he resists being molded into the Twins type of player.
Really, the Twins would be going after Wigginton a lot more aggressively and offering a lot more money if he hadn’t hit so many home runs this year. By hitting well, he damns himself and is no longer “a gamer” but a stubborn fool who thinks a home run is more valuable than a single.
If Gomez is the #9 hitter, the Twins are in good shape. He has power potential, he gets those infield hits, he steals bases, he seems to have learned how to bunt successfully, he annoys Cliff Lee, not to mention his speed on the bases (7 triples) and defense in the field- his BA was low, but .258 isn’t horrible when you factor in the midsummer flatlining. Yes, he needs a little time to develop- but he’s already starting to make strides in the right direction and could really help the Twins now.
And from someone who really enjoys watching the game, he’s entertaining as hell. There’s a reason he became a fan favorite from day 1, making us forget about Torii Hunter almost immediately- there’s something to be said for his style. Intangibles count at least a little, too.
sirsean: The Twins attributed part of their successful hitting with RISP last year to situational batting practice (I don’t know if I got that term right- I mean what to do if a guy’s on second, third, etc.). Asking a guy to slap a single if someone’s on second or loft a deep fly ball if someone’s on third is smart. It avoids NY and Chicago’s “stand around until someone hits a home run” plan. Perhaps (and this is nothing but speculation) Delmon doesn’t think much about the game situation when he’s at the plate.
RE: Wigginton: Unlikely, but I love the bitter sarcasm.
Gomez really stopped stealing bases after the first few months of the season because he doesn’t know how. At first he was taking bases on raw speed alone, then the pitchers and defense figured out ways to get him out, and his speed was no longer enough. Hunter was never the fastest guy on the basepaths, but he was a smart baserunner who was able to get extratordinary jumps. Gomez needs to learn now to do that, but before he learns that he needs to learn how to get on base.
I’m in the minority of fans, when I say I would rather see fundamentally sound baseball all the time, than a player who is exciting, but makes a lot of dumb errors. Thats why I am not on the Gomez bandwagon. I think he will become a hell of a player, but the Twins (and the Mets for that matter) should have taken more time to develop him. I hope to god he was working on his approach to the plate this offseason. Does anyone know if he is/was playing winter ball?
That is a good point about situational batting practice, but the point still stands about natural power hitters. Why force them to change, thus making them less good at baseball?
Either way, it really comes back to the balance argument. Having two pure power hitters (Kubel and Young) to compliment your great all around hitters (Mauer and Morneau) who in turn compliment the speed guys, is a great way to build an offense. Play to everyones strengths.
I just don’t know that Young is a pure power hitter, unless the Rays have the same hitting philosophy as the Twins (thereby keeping him from reaching his potential?). His stats look almost exactly the same last year as they did in 2007, except for a higher OPS with the Twins. Maybe Young is really more of a good all-around hitter like Morneau- still a great guy to have in the lineup.
I’d agree that Gomez’s play was excruciating at times, but I don’t think you’re giving enough credit to him for improvement. It’ll be interesting to see how he does in Spring Training- will he be more polished at the plate or will he be a bundle of nervous energy taking wild swings at pitches in the dirt? I’m hoping for the former.
I’ve heard about this situational batting practice. It’s interesting, but I don’t know how much of an effect it actually has. Sure, we hit well with RISP this year, but we didn’t last year. We did the year before that, and not the year before that. Statistics say that hitting with RISP is not a skill — that it tends to equal your overall hitting ability over time. It might be better to practice overall hitting ability with a mind to improving OBP and SLG in general, rather than focusing on practicing something that isn’t even a skill.
Unless, of course, Ron Gardenhire is just smarter than everyone who’s thought about baseball in the last thirty years.
My friend just made a great point with our “overcroweded” outfield problem…
4 OF’s (Gomez, Span, Young, Cuddyer) + DH (Kubel) without injury for the entire season (let that sink in, how fortunate first of all), but you could figure 600 PA for each position (600 x 4 = 2400 PA, plate appearances) divided by 5 guys, is 480 PA’s for each guy, that’s quite a bit considering platoons and matchups and who starts over who, if done right. But just take 1 injury that lands a guy out for an extended time period… and with the way these guys “hustle”, it’s bound to happen.
I really hope we dont dump Young, which would be stupid… plenty of playing time available out there.
I guess I don’t understand how continually practicing situational batting practice is useful. During spring training they should do it everyday, but once they season starts every guy on the team should know exactly what to do with any number of outs, and any number of baserunners. There are a high, but limited, number of permutations. Maybe once a month run through a refresher course, but other than that, as pro ball-players all these situations sould be ingrained into their head.
“Unless, of course, Ron Gardenhire is just smarter than everyone who’s thought about baseball in the last thirty years.”
Sounds about right to me! Fire up the “Gardy’s a Genius” web site!
Seriously, the Twins kept that BA with RISP up throughout the whole season. I wonder if it’s because the rookies don’t know any better, so they really bought into the system. Even if it is just an aberration, it would be nice to see a similar pattern next season.
Repetition, repetition, repetition. I suspect that even the professionals (I know, I know, they’re paid to know and do the job) need to do this sort of thing. You practice how you play. If the Twins do this throughout the season, I’d be pleased. This is a game after all and it should be fun. I’d much rather a player think instead of “going through the motions.” They should be challenged at every step along the way — this is probably even more important to MLB players at the top of their game. Complacency kills. Good for the Twins.
It’d take another couple of seasons of hitting well with RISP (ie, better than overall) for it to be anything but an aberration.
And the Twins haven’t put together two consecutive seasons where they hit with RISP better than they hit overall. So at best this is a “skill” that our players don’t consistently have.
Also, the meme that young players are successful in high pressure situations because they’re “too dumb to know better,” or some such variation, is nonsensical and annoying. The Rays didn’t make it to the World Series because they were too young and dumb to realize they sucked; it was because they were good. Is everyone who believes in that idea admitting that they were unable to understand basic concepts until they were 25? Is that something people want to admit?
Carlos Gomez may not speak English very well, but I seriously doubt he’s too dumb to realize that you should be trying to do something good at the plate EVERY time you bat, as opposed to just when it’s important. Or something. I don’t know what “buying into the system” would really mean, or how it would be supposed to effect the player’s performance other than “hit better.”
As far as batting avg w/ RISP is concerned, it has a lot to do with luck, and yes, the Twins, despite their lack of power in the lineup, were lucky to maintain that avg.
Having said that, I took a quick look at things that I tend to value more than others, OBP and HRs.. here’s a month by month look at the Twins this past season:
March/April OBP .305 3HRs May OBP .341 19HRs June OBP .335 23HRs July OBP .361 19HRs Aug OBP .350 23HRs Sept/Oct OBP .350 13HRs
However, the last 7 days of the season (important games), they had OBP .333 and hit ZERO HRs…
You could check their record each month and I’m sure it would correlate pretty close to their best months “WIN” wise has a lot to do with getting on base and hitting HRs (the quickest way to score)
Bare in mind, there’s nothing defense related or pitching related, just wanted to look at “power” stats really… I must be bored today…
sirsean: By “buying into the system,” I mean that players assume that Gardy and the other coaches know what they’re doing and are giving them sound advice. I never said the rookies were too dumb to know better. My point was that they most likely didn’t have a jaded, “situational batting practice is pointless so I’m not going to give it my all” attitude. Please don’t accuse me of thinking the players are stupid because they’re young or they can’t speak English fluently- that’s not fair.
Yeah, the BA with RISP thing could definitely be a fluke- but all the ESPN analysts were telling us that it would peter out by mid-May. The June. Then July. Hey, if it was just luck, I’ll take it- but I don’t see how situational batting practice is somehow a bad thing and that the Twins shouldn’t bother. That’s how I’m reading you- correct me if I’m wrong. Situation BP just gives the guys another way to be successful during the game by having an automatic plan when they go to the plate.
So I looked it up anyways… their Records by month…
Apr 13-14 May 15-13 June 17-11 July 15-10 Aug 17-12 Sep 11-14 (15 losses if you count game 163!)
April and Sept, bad HR months, bad records (under .500)
I’m not saying, I’m just saying…
Situational batting practice may, in fact, be pointless. The point of practice is to improve your skills — therefore, if something is not an improvable skill, it shouldn’t be practiced. Hitting is a skill. Defense is a skill. Hitting with runners in scoring position is not a skill (at least not any different from regular “hitting”).
I was characterizing the typical “young players don’t know any better” attitude, not yours in particular. Sorry if it came off as an accusation.
But I seriously, seriously doubt that our “veteran” players are “jaded” about anything.
Obviously the Twins were successful this season because of their situational hitting. But MarkW is right that OBP and extra base hits are what generally lead to scoring runs. And they are repeatable skills, unlike AVG w/RISP.
As such, I’d prefer that the team works on improving actual skills that can actually be improved, as opposed to hoping that we stay lucky for a second consecutive year (which we’ve never done before).
Sad to say, I don’t know enough about professional batting practice or what Joe Vavra actually does to continue with my Devil’s Advocate argument. Your views are interesting- my view is, it’s unlikely that situational batting practice would hurt a team, it could really only help, so why not give it a shot. Not exactly a ringing endorsement, I know.
Strangely enough, this topic came up in the Strib boards this afternoon.
I don’t read the comments on the Strib boards, so I don’t know. Was their debate largely different from ours?
I’d say the actual situational batting practice wouldn’t hurt the team aside from being a waste of time that could be spent in ways that might actually improve the team. It’s not like practicing what to do with a man on third could somehow make the team worse.
The dangerous thing is that the already slap-hitting Twins may become even more slap-happy with RISP.
Obviously that didn’t happen this year. As a team we had a .697 OPS with the bases empty and an .811 OPS with men on base, and an .826 OPS with RISP. If hitting with RISP were actually a skill, we’d be the best at it.
But the gaps are much smaller in 2007: Empty: .702 Men on: .744 RISP: .759
Unless the situational batting practice is working, I’d expect the gap between OPS with the bases empty and OPS with men on / RISP to regress back into the .050 range rather than the .120 range.
Frankly I hope the team isn’t wasting its time in practice and I hope we score a crapload of runs next year, so having another season with a gap of .120 in OPS would be great. We’ll see.
It was a very short debate- everyone was more focused on the merits/problems with Ty Wigginton. The conclusion was that it didn’t really matter, the Twins need a power-hitting third baseman (like, oh, say, Ty Wigginton) to fill out the roster.
Still is interesting that OPS rises, even if only by a little in 2007, with men on base and a little bit more with runners in scoring position. It must be because the pitcher gets more distracted when players are cluttering up the base paths. Maybe Span, Casilla, Gomez, Punto, and even Mauer and Young, with their quickness, make pitchers extra-nervous and distracted- hence the high OPS with RISP for the speedy Twins last season.
Or maybe not. Fun thought, though.
I wouldn’t say its as much a distraction as the fact that pitchers pitch from the stretch with runners on base, whereas from the windup with the bases empty. Outside of some relievers (mostly closers) all pitchers pitch like this. My guess is that most teams hit slightly better with runners on, but I’m not sure what the average gap would be.
Your guess is correct. Most teams hit better with men on and with RISP, but the Twins’ gap of .120 in 2008 is unusually large. I believe the gap of .050 in 2007 is more common — and that’s obviously a very large difference in runs scored.
And it’s because pitchers have to go out of the stretch, are somewhat distracted by the baserunners, and have to offer better pitches because they don’t want to walk a guy to add to a bigger inning (resulting in easier pitches to hit and drive).
If it’s actually a learnable, improvable skill, then the Twins are developing a significant advantage over other teams. I don’t think it’s clear (or even likely) that it is though.
[...] Ty WiggintonAs everyone knows, the Astros non-tendered third baseman Ty WIgginton at Friday’s deadline. LEN3 wrote a piece about it over the weekend. Despite his name being similar to Ty Willingham, I think the Twins should go after him. . [...]