How Does Chipper Jones Relate to Joe Mauer?
How do they relate? Well, I can think of a way.
As he often does, Craig Calcaterra over at The Harball Times has come up with an interesting thing to think about. This time, in regards to the recent extension Chipper Jones signed to stay with the Braves:
Seriously though, for Braves fans this is one of those things that transcends objective analysis. I really don’t care what his injury risk is. I really don’t care how much money it’s for. At some point and with some players you have to throw that stuff out the window, and Jones is the player you do that for in Atlanta. He’s the Braves’ Al Kaline, and that’s the kind of guy you never want to see in another uniform, no matter how much of a shadow of his former self he becomes by the end of the deal.Obviously Chipper is 11 years older than Mauer, and it’s way too early to be thinking about that. But I have the distinct feeling that a lot of people already feel the same way about Mauer.
That he needs to stay a Twin, even if it costs a lot of money and for the last few years of his career he’s a hobbled, limping shell of the player he used to be. That if the Twins allow him to leave for another team, for whatever reason, it would be an abject failure.
I don’t know how I feel about this. On one level I want Mauer to stay a Twin forever. But I know he won’t be able to turn down $200M from the Yankees or Red Sox.
And I don’t think the Twins should compete with them to sign him like that, because by the end of that contract he’d be in his mid-thirties, getting paid $20M or so to be a backup catcher. Or a below average defensive catcher. Or a below average offensive third baseman. Or something other than what he is today.
I doubt I’m going to want to put myself in the situation where I might resent Mauer for being an overpaid albatross dragging down the Twins. And even though it’s like 10+ years away, I think it’s worth thinking about. (When players sign for 10 years, you have to be able to think 10 years ahead. Or at least try to.)
What does everyone think? Is it worth it to the team to ensure that their star players stay for their whole careers, even if it hurts them on the field? Do you want Mauer to be a Twin when he’s 37?
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This is a really tough call. Jones did help Atlanta win a world series, and they have been one of the most successful franchises in baseball while has been on the team. Mauer has been in the playoffs once. Jones is also a hometown boy. Well, maybe not home “town”, but he is from somewhere in Georgia. Jones also has a few MVPs. MVP trophies and playoff apperances are all things that Mauer will accumulate over his career. I don’t know Jones’ contract history offhand, but I don’t think he ever signed one giant (in terms of years) deal. He just kept signing mid-range deals, granted for a high annual salary, and was content to play for a winning franchise in Atlanta. Ideally we can do that with Mauer. I don’t think Jones every had an albatross of a contract, but will the Twins be able to keep Mauer in a similar fashion? A deal that is halfway between “ultra team friendly” and “albatross”? That is probably a pipe dream.
I lied. he is actually from northern Florida, but that is basically Georgia.
Ok, I looked it up. Obviously the braves are a different animal than the Twins in terms of what hamstrings them, but here are Jones’ contracts 4 years/8.25 million (96-99), club option for 2000. 6 years/90million (01-06) club options 07&08 reworked in 2006 as a 3year/37mil (06-09) reworked in 09 as 3years/42mil (10-12) 2013 option.
I guess that 6 year/90 might be considered an albatross, but other than that it is all pretty reasonable. lots of club options in there.
I think he’s worth signing to a 6 year deal now, with a club option on the 7th year and reworking something down the road so he stays at least another 10 years total… I think he would still be valuable to the organization as a back up catcher to the next catcher and for all the pitchers that will come and go… as it’s hard to put a price tag on all of the intangibles.
Wouldn’t you give the guy at least $12-14M per year for the next 8 years? Since we’d be UNDER paying him now and probably OVER paying slightly after his peak years?
There are several facets to this, including:
a. How Mauer comes back from his issues this year b. How Wilson Ramos progresses
If Ramos is tearing up the cover off the ball, it would be somewhat inane for the Twins not to trade Mauer. His value is higher than Santana/Sebathia/Viola/Knoblauch etc. If the Twins can get the four best prospects from a team with a decent minor league system, it should be a done deal…
Right. Mauer hasn’t shown the kind of durability early in his career that Jones did. This is why we write for the internet — so we can second guess everything.
Side note: Can we make sure they buy-out Cuddyer’s contract in 2011 for $1M instead of paying him $10.5M that year!! Ugh.
Back to Mauer, I think the issue to sign him will come before Ramos is ready to start in the majors… Can you really wait until AFTER 2010 to decided on Mauer?
Ramos might be ready by 2010, but there is no way that Mauer will not be at Target field on opening day. Whatever baseball logic might, just because of PR reasons the Twins almost have to sign Mauer. Hopefully he will give the team a Hrbek-like discount.
I’d absolutely give Mauer an 8 year, $96-112M extension, right now. I just think that’s HUGELY underestimating his value. And I wonder if he’s willing to accept that.
I also think people really fantasize the home town discount. Its a slight discount, yes. but if we offer him 8/100 and the yankees go 10/200, he has almost no reason to take that.
Another thing that should be under consideration is how intertwined the Mauer family is with the Twins: They signed both of his brothers and Jake after 2 years of coaching has been promoted to the manager position of the GCL Twins. It is not something to be taken lightly and I am sure that it would have a huge effect on Joe’s decision, esp. if the Twins are smart enough to offer him a contract a la Kirby Puckett, which would cover his employment after his baseball years are over…
Yeah, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, you can’t fault a guy for taking the higher offer when it’s that much higher; that’s why you have to extend him before he can get any other offers.
Now would be a perfect time to extend him, if we think he’ll recover from this injury and it won’t be a problem in the future. The injury drives his price down, and he has plenty of time to think about his contract (given that he’s not focused on playing).
The Twins don’t seem to have done any movement on this front, though. Either that or we just haven’t heard about it.
Either way we simply cannot trade him before 2010. The only way he ever gets traded is if we DO sign him to an extension, then in 2012 or so Ramos is hitting 40 HR a year in Rochester, we deal Mauer for a king’s ransom. It hurts even thinking about this, honestly.
You would lose too many people who identify the Twins as Mauer, and Mauer as the Twins. It hurt to lose Hunter and Santana, but it would be unacceptable to most fans to see Mauer in, God forbid, a Yankees/Red Sox uni. Hometown boy, model citizen, and- let’s face it- a big draw for the ladies. The Twins can’t let him go unless someone else steps up and becomes more of a “he’s one of us, and we’re absolutely proud of him” face of the franchise.
(Justin can’t do it alone.)
While I agree completely that Mauer is The Face of the Franchise and I want him for his whole career, I think Carlos Gomez has Franchise-Face potential, as does Liriano. And you never know what you’re going to get out of the minors.
Torii and Johan were Faces before, and we replaced them without really missing a step. I’m not worried about Face of the Franchise status.
Torii and Johan were different, I think. Torii phased his way out by blabbing to the press about wanting to play elsewhere- fans knew he was going to leave months before he signed that contract with the Angels. Johan demanded a trade and got one (plus, as a pitcher, he’s only a draw to the park every five days).
Do you think Joe’s as popular/valuable now as Kirby Puckett was? The Twins did what it took to keep Kirby, and they will probably have to do the same with Joe.
it is kind of silly to compare keeping Mauer with Puckett. The ecconomics of baseball are day and night different than they were 15 years ago. Doing what it took to keep Puckett didn’t require us to match a 200 million dollar contract, which it might for Mauer. I don’t know Mauer personally, but I can’t assume that just because he is from here he will want to play for the Twins his whole life. He lives in Florida in the offseason, his parents have moved to Florida. Someone brought up the point of his brother (brothers?) coaching in the organization, that might help a little. So who knows.
When we signed Puckett, we gave him the largest contract EVER. At the time.
If that’s what it takes for us to keep Mauer, then he’s as good as gone.
Hrbek gave us a hometown discount, Puckett didn’t. If we keep Mauer, it’ll be because he gave us a discount. I don’t know that he will.
But Puckett is another Face of the Franchise that we managed to replace. Those guys come and go, and I’m not worried about that so much.
I’ve never really bought into the “face of the franchise” hoopla. For me the face of the franchise is the damn logo. I don’t much care who we trot out onto the field as long as we win.
Good point.
The Face of the Franchise is, and will always be, TC The Hamm’s Bear.
Just who did the Twins replace Kirby with? [grammar alert] Who was the face of the franchise in the mid-to-late 90s, and who drew people to the ballpark?
There was no star player, the team was bad, people stopped attending games, and the team almost went up for contraction. Obviously not saying this is all because there was no face of the franchise- but you can’t necessarily count on the Twins having The Next Great Ballplayer coming up through the pipeline all the time, either.
The Twins sucked from 1992-1995 even with Puckett. And attendance was plummeting. Having a Face of the Franchise doesn’t automatically save the team.
Also, Brad Radke came along in 1995. Everybody loves that guy.
Also, doesn’t this kind of demonstrate that having a Face of the Franchise is not nearly as important as putting together a good team?
The Twins also had Chuck Knoblauch during those years as well. So one could argue they had TWO faces of the franchise.
The Rays are one of the best teams in the AL, I don’t think they have one person who is the “face”. You could make an argument for anyone on the team.
You could also argue that Ron Gardenhire is the face of the Twins, considering their continued success despite high player turnover. It isn’t always a player. Face of the Dodgers? Probably Tommy Lasorda.
Gardy very well could be the face of the Twins … but during his tenure we had Torii and then Mauer. So he’s never been the manager when we didn’t have a legitimate face-caliber star.
But he (and Cuddyer) are the only holdovers from the start of the Twins run this century. I don’t think anyone’s calling Cuddyer the face of the franchise.
Good point.
Although I don’t think having one good/popular player will put fans in the stands. Before Al Jefferson, the “face” of the Timberwolves and a very good and popular player, got hurt, the Wolves still couldn’t get anyone to come to a game. If we had Joe Mauer and a bunch of terrible players would people still come to the park? It just goes to show you that in order to sell tickets, you have to put a winning team on the field. Or at least a good team.
It does always come back to that. The team is more important, to the fans, than any one individual player.
Mauer plus a bunch of scrubs on a losing team — nobody would show up and he wouldn’t even be worth his current salary, much less a megabucks extension.
But Mauer plus a few other All Stars on a winning team? Big attendance numbers, plus moving into a new revenue-generating stadium? There’s a limit to where the Twins’ payroll can go … but we don’t know what that limit is yet.
Mauer can absolutely be worth a megabucks extension in certain scenarios; and the Twins seem to be on the cusp of just one of those scenarios.
If you held a gun to my head I would say he does get a big extension soon. Whether or not it is best for the long term health of the team remains uncertain.
Of course it’s impossible to know until later. That’s why it’s so risky.
And the Twins have, for the most part, been extremely risk-averse. That hurts the fans in the short term (because we want them to take the risk and keep our players or get the big new guy), but we have to remember that we’re not taking the risk. It’s not our money on the table.
With more revenue, the Twins may be more willing to take that risk.
Ultimately I agree. He’ll probably get the extension. And we’ll all be thrilled.
And then if Mauer ever gets hurt or less effective, we’ll all be pissed at the Twins for taking such a stupid risk.
I believe that’s how this works.
Yes. Owners/GMs can’t make wise investments. They are either cheap or foolish with money. No middle ground. If we Mauer leaves, the Pohlads are cheap bastards. If we keep him and he wrecks himself before he checks himself, the Pohlads are stupid for wasting money on an injury prone catcher.
Hopefully we can bring a little level-headedness to the situation.
We are, after all, the bloggingest blog of blogs. If that’s not a title people listen to, I don’t know what is.
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