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	<title>Comments on: The Twins White Elephant Contract?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://firegardy.com/2009/11/05/the-twins-white-elephant-contract/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://firegardy.com/2009/11/05/the-twins-white-elephant-contract/</link>
	<description>Mismanaging games since 2002</description>
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		<title>By: Ragstoriches</title>
		<link>http://firegardy.com/2009/11/05/the-twins-white-elephant-contract/comment-page-1/#comment-2924</link>
		<dc:creator>Ragstoriches</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 16:31:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firegardy.com/?p=840#comment-2924</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;As long as we agree that Punto (or Harris) can not continue to start for this team then I&#039;ll stop too.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As long as we agree that Punto (or Harris) can not continue to start for this team then I&#8217;ll stop too.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: sirsean</title>
		<link>http://firegardy.com/2009/11/05/the-twins-white-elephant-contract/comment-page-1/#comment-2923</link>
		<dc:creator>sirsean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 16:24:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firegardy.com/?p=840#comment-2923</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I can&#039;t believe I got suckered into defending Punto again.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I hope nobody minds if I just stop right now.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t believe I got suckered into defending Punto again.</p>

<p>I hope nobody minds if I just stop right now.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: sirsean</title>
		<link>http://firegardy.com/2009/11/05/the-twins-white-elephant-contract/comment-page-1/#comment-2922</link>
		<dc:creator>sirsean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 16:23:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firegardy.com/?p=840#comment-2922</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I&#039;m going to ignore the &quot;I don&#039;t understand new things, therefore they must be incorrect&quot; argument. I hope you don&#039;t mind.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Let&#039;s see ... Harris is 0.4 runs WORSE than Punto at hitting, and is 14 runs WORSE in the field. He got 1.5 runs LESS of a positional adjustment because he spent much less time in the middle infield than Punto did. (IE, Harris is worse at 3B than Punto is at 3B or 2B or SS.)&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Harris was worth -1.1 wins in 2009, against a REPLACEMENT level player. IE, every team should have access to guys in AA and AAA who are better baseball players than Brendan Harris. (At least in 2009. He&#039;s not actually as bad as he played this year.)&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The thing is, there should not be an argument about &quot;whether Harris or Punto is a better player,&quot; ever. If that&#039;s what&#039;s happening, the Twins have made a mistake. They need to get rid of Harris, who isn&#039;t good enough to be a starter and isn&#039;t versatile enough to be a utility guy. They need to sign at least one, preferably two infielders who are actually average-to-good baseball players. Then they need to put Punto on the bench and have him fill in 2-4 times a week to give the other guys a rest.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;But IF you only have Punto and Harris and you have to pick one, you&#039;d be well served to pick Punto. Did you know that since 2004 (Harris&#039; first year), Punto has been worth 9 wins, while Harris has been worth 2.5 wins? That&#039;s a &lt;em&gt;huge&lt;/em&gt; difference.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m going to ignore the &#8220;I don&#8217;t understand new things, therefore they must be incorrect&#8221; argument. I hope you don&#8217;t mind.</p>

<p>Let&#8217;s see &#8230; Harris is 0.4 runs WORSE than Punto at hitting, and is 14 runs WORSE in the field. He got 1.5 runs LESS of a positional adjustment because he spent much less time in the middle infield than Punto did. (IE, Harris is worse at 3B than Punto is at 3B or 2B or SS.)</p>

<p>Harris was worth -1.1 wins in 2009, against a REPLACEMENT level player. IE, every team should have access to guys in AA and AAA who are better baseball players than Brendan Harris. (At least in 2009. He&#8217;s not actually as bad as he played this year.)</p>

<p>The thing is, there should not be an argument about &#8220;whether Harris or Punto is a better player,&#8221; ever. If that&#8217;s what&#8217;s happening, the Twins have made a mistake. They need to get rid of Harris, who isn&#8217;t good enough to be a starter and isn&#8217;t versatile enough to be a utility guy. They need to sign at least one, preferably two infielders who are actually average-to-good baseball players. Then they need to put Punto on the bench and have him fill in 2-4 times a week to give the other guys a rest.</p>

<p>But IF you only have Punto and Harris and you have to pick one, you&#8217;d be well served to pick Punto. Did you know that since 2004 (Harris&#8217; first year), Punto has been worth 9 wins, while Harris has been worth 2.5 wins? That&#8217;s a <em>huge</em> difference.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Ragstoriches</title>
		<link>http://firegardy.com/2009/11/05/the-twins-white-elephant-contract/comment-page-1/#comment-2921</link>
		<dc:creator>Ragstoriches</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 16:12:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firegardy.com/?p=840#comment-2921</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Except for the top section, that page is incomprehensible.  I have no idea what I&#039;m looking at, what the numbers mean, how they are derived, etc.  So I can&#039;t comment on those stats.  But compare Punto with Brendan Harris.  Harris is a better hitter than Punto, a slightly lesser fielder, and plays multiple infield positions.  Good hitting is harder to come by than good fielding.  So why is Punto more &quot;valuable&quot; than Harris? About 4x more valuable according to salary?&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Except for the top section, that page is incomprehensible.  I have no idea what I&#8217;m looking at, what the numbers mean, how they are derived, etc.  So I can&#8217;t comment on those stats.  But compare Punto with Brendan Harris.  Harris is a better hitter than Punto, a slightly lesser fielder, and plays multiple infield positions.  Good hitting is harder to come by than good fielding.  So why is Punto more &#8220;valuable&#8221; than Harris? About 4x more valuable according to salary?</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: sirsean</title>
		<link>http://firegardy.com/2009/11/05/the-twins-white-elephant-contract/comment-page-1/#comment-2920</link>
		<dc:creator>sirsean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 14:55:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firegardy.com/?p=840#comment-2920</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I&#039;m not really in the mood to rehash the old Punto argument again. But I recommend you &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1429&amp;position=2B/3B/SS#value&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;check this out&lt;/a&gt; and take a look at the bottom of the page, in Punto&#039;s value section. Look at the amount he&#039;s been worth against what he&#039;s been paid. For example, in 2009 (a down year for Punto), he was paid $4M and produced $5.8M worth of on-the-field value. In 2008 (a good year for Punto), he was paid $2.4M and was worth $11.5M ... nothing wrong with that.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I don&#039;t &lt;em&gt;know&lt;/em&gt; how many players like that there are in the league, and how much they all make. But if they&#039;re free agents, they probably make at least as much as Punto does.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;You don&#039;t get production for free. Punto&#039;s a 1-3 win player getting paid like a 1 win player. Nothing about that says &quot;awful contract.&quot; It says &quot;good job of talent evaluation and contract negotiation,&quot; and &lt;em&gt;maybe&lt;/em&gt; it says &quot;you guys could probably use better players, but then you&#039;d have to spend a lot more money and would have to sacrifice a lot of versatility.&quot;&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not really in the mood to rehash the old Punto argument again. But I recommend you <a href="http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1429&amp;position=2B/3B/SS#value" rel="nofollow">check this out</a> and take a look at the bottom of the page, in Punto&#8217;s value section. Look at the amount he&#8217;s been worth against what he&#8217;s been paid. For example, in 2009 (a down year for Punto), he was paid $4M and produced $5.8M worth of on-the-field value. In 2008 (a good year for Punto), he was paid $2.4M and was worth $11.5M &#8230; nothing wrong with that.</p>

<p>I don&#8217;t <em>know</em> how many players like that there are in the league, and how much they all make. But if they&#8217;re free agents, they probably make at least as much as Punto does.</p>

<p>You don&#8217;t get production for free. Punto&#8217;s a 1-3 win player getting paid like a 1 win player. Nothing about that says &#8220;awful contract.&#8221; It says &#8220;good job of talent evaluation and contract negotiation,&#8221; and <em>maybe</em> it says &#8220;you guys could probably use better players, but then you&#8217;d have to spend a lot more money and would have to sacrifice a lot of versatility.&#8221;</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Ragstoriches</title>
		<link>http://firegardy.com/2009/11/05/the-twins-white-elephant-contract/comment-page-1/#comment-2919</link>
		<dc:creator>Ragstoriches</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 14:42:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firegardy.com/?p=840#comment-2919</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;How many 8 or 9 hitters make $4 mil a year? How many .230 hitters make $4 mil a year? How many sub-40 RBI guys make $4 mil a year? How many guys with a .973 FP (20th among 2B) make $4 mil a year? Yeah, he can field a few positions adequately, but so can hundreds of minor leaguers. The Punto contract is awful.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How many 8 or 9 hitters make $4 mil a year? How many .230 hitters make $4 mil a year? How many sub-40 RBI guys make $4 mil a year? How many guys with a .973 FP (20th among 2B) make $4 mil a year? Yeah, he can field a few positions adequately, but so can hundreds of minor leaguers. The Punto contract is awful.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Bryz</title>
		<link>http://firegardy.com/2009/11/05/the-twins-white-elephant-contract/comment-page-1/#comment-2918</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 04:24:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firegardy.com/?p=840#comment-2918</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Funny, I covered this topic at my blog as well. http://weareoffthemark.wordpress.com/2009/10/29/one-persons-trash-is-another-persons-well-trash/&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Funny, I covered this topic at my blog as well. <a href="http://weareoffthemark.wordpress.com/2009/10/29/one-persons-trash-is-another-persons-well-trash/" rel="nofollow">http://weareoffthemark.wordpress.com/2009/10/29/one-persons-trash-is-another-persons-well-trash/</a></p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: sirsean</title>
		<link>http://firegardy.com/2009/11/05/the-twins-white-elephant-contract/comment-page-1/#comment-2915</link>
		<dc:creator>sirsean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 19:39:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firegardy.com/?p=840#comment-2915</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I really hope they don&#039;t extend Cabrera, and we still have control of Cuddyer for two more years; no reason to worry about his extension just yet.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really hope they don&#8217;t extend Cabrera, and we still have control of Cuddyer for two more years; no reason to worry about his extension just yet.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: rghrbek</title>
		<link>http://firegardy.com/2009/11/05/the-twins-white-elephant-contract/comment-page-1/#comment-2914</link>
		<dc:creator>rghrbek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 19:35:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firegardy.com/?p=840#comment-2914</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;You are right, they don&#039;t have any bad contracts.  I fear, however, they will have two, shortly.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Cruddy, as they extend him for 3 years at roughly 9 mil a year&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;OC, if they sign him for 2 years, it&#039;s a mistake.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are right, they don&#8217;t have any bad contracts.  I fear, however, they will have two, shortly.</p>

<p>Cruddy, as they extend him for 3 years at roughly 9 mil a year</p>

<p>OC, if they sign him for 2 years, it&#8217;s a mistake.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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