Jim Thome?
Joe C is reportingthat the Twins are hot on the trail of free agent DH/Twin Killer Jim Thome. When I first read this story I was confused. The Twins already have a DH who cannot hit lefties. What would we need Thome for? He made $13 million last year, so how much of a pay cut can be expected? Would he really be willing to accept a bench role?
Aaron Gleeman opines that he platoon at DH with Young while Kuble takes most of the reps in left. I wouldn’t mind seeing that happen, Thome hits righties too well to be a bench player. While Young is pretty terrible at everything. The biggest question at this point has to be his price tag. The Twins payroll already looks to be in the $90 million range with gaping holes in the infield. Would Thome accept a pay cut down to the $1 million range? I don’t know which AL teams have a hole at DH, but it seems like a team like the Yankees or Red Sox can give Thome more money to do the same job.
I like the thinking that the Twins need to upgrade their bench, but I don’t think the price on Thome will come down to the point where it is worth it to sign him as a bench player. If they are committed to giving him the bulk of DH at bats against righties, then I think they should go for it. Given the current payroll level and glaring holes elsewhere, maybe we are better off going after someone like Ryan Garko as a bat off the bench. Any money we have available should be put towards a second or thirdbaseman.
What do you guys think about Jim Thome in a Twins uniform?
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It’s a waste of money. Another leftie, who is all or nothing, who even if he gets on has to be pinched run for in meaningful situations.
Plus Kubel is worse in the field than Young. A waste of money.
Check this out.
http://overthebaggy.blogspot.com/
I agree. But I don’t think anyone would read this blog if my posts were only 20 words long.
I’m going to go ahead and say that I don’t care if Thome will “clog up the bases” by being too slow. Being on base is a good thing!
That said, I also agree that the Twins don’t really need him. He’s a half-time player who would further strengthen our biggest offensive strength: left handed hitting. Meanwhile, he’d precipitate a decline in our already weak outfield defense, and hinder the development of Delmon Young for yet another season … which is something I’m adamantly opposed to.
However, if the Twins have found that they can’t get Hudson or Lopez on a favorable contract, this might be the best way to improve the team; I don’t find much fault with Gleeman’s analysis that if Thome is used correctly he’d be about a 1 WAR upgrade. If we can get him for under $3-4M for one season, it’d be worth it as a fallback option.
The problems I see with this process:
But ultimately, everyone’s focusing too much on the direct benefits with having Thome, and ignoring the possible indirect benefits.
Is it possible that Thome could help Kubel and Morneau? Morneau, being an MVP and team leader, may not be as open to advice as he could be … but Kubel is a Thome-esque hitter, and as his knees continue to age he’ll probably become even more Thome-like in his ability to move, which means he’ll need to become more Thome-like in his ability to hit. What better way to facilitate that than by giving him access to Thome on a daily basis? If you could spend $4M in one year to get a 1 WAR upgrade and make Kubel better for years to come, isn’t that money well spent? I’d say it’s at least worth thinking about.
Thome as a veteran bat off the bench is fine, if he will accept that role at a reasonable price. The Twins don’t really have any pinch hitter right now.
Any discussion of signing him to “platoon” with Delmon Young is ridiculous. That is the type of move a clueless organization without a plan makes. That isn’t the Twins.
as long as they aren’t using the money they should have set aside for Hudson or Lopez. An upgrade at second or third needs to be priority numero uno. Bench players are a nice luxury, but isn’t it better if all of your starters are good enough hitters that you don’t have to pinch hit for them? Having someone like Thome on the bench is basically saying “one of our starters won’t be good enough to get at bats late in the game against a good relief pitcher”. Let’s exhaust all infield optiosn first before we start adding realtively pricey bench bats. I feel that Matt Stairs could have been added for cheaper than Thome if we really wanted/needed a lefty power hitter on our bench.
Using him as nothing but a pinch hitter isn’t viable for the AL; it’d destroy the versatility of our bench and if we ever used him we’d also have to burn Pridie or Tolbert as a defensive replacement. He’s a waste of money and, more importantly, a roster spot if he’s not going to DH regularly.
And what, exactly, is so “clueless” about platooning a righty-killing slugger with a young player who struggles against righties?
“what, exactly, is so “clueless” about platooning a righty-killing slugger with a young player who struggles against righties?”
Only a clueless organization signs a 40 year old aging slugger for the expressed purpose of taking plate appearances away from a young player they just committed a starting spot to. Especially when they have an enormous investment in him and he appeared to have broken out at the end of last season. And you are not only messing with Young, but with Kubel as well. Its a trading card plan.
“if we ever used him we’d also have to burn Pridie or Tolbert as a defensive replacement. ”
Isn’t one purpose of having defensive players like Pridie and Tolbert (or Cassila) on the bench to allow you to pinch hit for someone? Why would using them in that role be a problem? Unless he hits a home run, you are also probably going to pinch run for Thome, which those guys can do as well.
Why would Thome be a worse option as the last bench player than Alexi Casilla or Matt Tolbert? He can pinch hit for Harris and Punto. As the idea of platooning him with Young demonstrates, it allows you to use Kubel as an offensive fourth outfielder. Which means if Morneau, Cuddyer or Young get hurt you are not limited to Pridie as your only backup. It seems like he brings a lot more to the table than another utility infielder.
But at the price of $4M, you’re suddenly not acting like a mid-market team. Having a one-trick pony like Thome as nothing but a bench player is a luxury the Twins likely can’t afford, and given the number of plate appearances he’d get as a bench player, we’d be paying a premium per win; giving him regular DH-duty against righties is about the only way to get that investment to pay off.
If we’re in “develop young players” mode, then no, we don’t want to platoon Delmon Young. But if we’re in “win now” mode, and platooning him with Thome will make us a better team for this year, then it’s not clueless. It’s just a decision.
Lots of good dialogue on here. As opposed as I am to this move (who cares what I think?), you know Gardy will find a way to work him (big Jim) in more (it’s rumored by fat Pat, that Gardy is the one pushing this). I would not be surprised to see him play a little 1st base, so he can give Morny a break and DH more.
As “over the baggy” pointed out, his skills are diminishing, even his hitting skills against righties. Yes, if we get Lopez or another quality infield option, and somehow sign big Jim, then I won’t be as opposed due to the possible “bench presence” he may have.
Anything close to 4 million for this guy is ludicrous. We have other needs more pressing. Playing Kubel in the field that much, makes one of the most challenged outfields in all of baseball worse.
If the Twins were (hypothetical here) to get a legit #2 guy in the batting order, their lineup would be quite formidable. In this scenario, adding Thome, at that kind of price, is silly.
My gut tells me, they will sign big jim and Jarod W, and call it an off-season (maybe going after Crede), crossing their fingers that Joe will be impressed and give us that home town discount.
Oh my god, do I hope the Twins don’t go over $100M by signing Washburn and Thome.
I totally agree that a #2 hitter like Lopez should be a much higher priority, and if we get him our lineup’s main weakness is going to be Delmon Young and whoever’s playing 3B (unless Valencia turns out to be any good). I’d say that’s a contender’s problem.
But $4M isn’t totally over the wall for Thome. Assuming Gleeman’s analysis is accurate, which I do, and that Thome gets considerable playing time (350-400 plate appearances), he’ll be worth 1 win. This offseason, wins seem to be going for $3.5M-$4M on the free agent market. If we could get Thome on a $2M deal, then he’s worth it as a bench player (though the cut in versatility will still hurt, and I don’t know what that’s worth). The thing is, we don’t really know what kind of dollars they’re talking about; we only know that $4M is the absolute maximum the Twins should pay him based on how good he is and the maximum amount of playing time they’re going to give him. And at that rate he wouldn’t be a bad deal.
Are the Twins officially pursuing Lopez and/or Hudson? Any other teams in the running?
Undoubtedly, they’ve considered both as options. According to LEN3, the scouts are convinced that Lopez’s 2B defense is bad (they disagree with UZR) and thus the Twins aren’t chasing after him very hard. I don’t know the status of their pursuit of Hudson.
So really, we’re just hoping the Twins are smart enough to think a Punto/Tolbert/Casilla “super platoon” isn’t adequate for 2B. I have a feeling it’s false hope.
LEN3 cited one scout, who was probably a Twins scout and we know how much the Twins use metrics to value a player.
Not often to never. In all my research (meaning whatever I can remember reading since I wanted him at the trading deadline last year til now) is that he is a better than average 2nd basemen.
Oh yeah, .383 ob% last year. If the Twins don’t go after Lopez it’s because of money, not his glove.
Yes, it was a Twins scout that said he had bad defense, and yes, we know they don’t look at defensive metrics. We also know they don’t know/care about OBP.
If they don’t go after Lopez it’s not necessarily about money (we don’t know what the market for him is right now, and actually I’m stunned he’s still out there).
It may very well be that the Twins don’t think he’s any good. They’d be wrong about that, but that seems to be what they think.
Sometimes I just don’t understand the Twins man. I guess the Thome deal is low-risk, and maybe they thought the move would impress Mauer. But something tells me they’re done for the offseason. Which makes about 15 straight years they’ve failed to address the 2B/3B issue. But hey, let’s add a creaky left handed DH.
So are they giving up on Delmontello?
Given the price they are paying for Thome, I think it is OK if he is used sparingly off the bench. If we were going to pay him 3-4 mil, I think it would have been necessary for him to play more to justify the price tag.